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Who we sat down with
A $1.2 billion exit is the dream. Elias Torres calls it his biggest failure. The Drift co-founder joins Sophie Buonassisi on GTMnow to unpack why the headline number felt hollow, what he learned in the quiet stretch afterward, and why he jumped straight back in to build Agency, an AI company that runs your entire customer organization.
Elias gets honest about identity after the exit, the difference between chasing a title and building something enduring, and the operating thesis behind Agency: a billion-dollar company with fewer than 100 people, where 80 to 90% of the team are engineers and everyone talks to customers. He also gets into distribution as the hardest problem in the AI era, why he only takes money from investors who lead with value (Pat Grady and Brian Halligan back the company), and the two decades he’s spent building alongside David Cancel.
Discussed in this episode
- Why a $1.2B exit can still feel like a failure, and what “enduring” actually means
- How to rebuild your identity when the title goes away
- The Agency thesis: $1B with under 100 people, and how AI agents make it possible
- Why Elias runs the whole company on Agency itself, with no CRM
- Why sales may be the last role AI eliminates, and what that means for GTM
- How to spot investors who lead with value instead of a pitch deck
- Why distribution, not product, is the hardest problem in the AI era
- What 20+ years building with David Cancel (Performable, HubSpot, Drift) taught him about partnership
Episode highlights
2:25 – Time off, slowing down, and losing the title
4:00 – The inflection point and what comes after a big exit
7:00 – What Agency is and the problem it solves
11:00 – Why he brought people he’s known for years
11:40 – Investors who lead with value (Pat Grady and Brian Halligan)
17:30 – Building with David Cancel for 20+ years
23:00 – The bold claim: $1B with under 100 people
26:00 – The go-to-market motion behind it
28:30 – “Sales is the last role AI will eliminate”
36:00 – High-agency people and how Agency runs itself
42:00 – Building distribution in the AI era
51:00 – Where to find Elias and Agency
Key takeaways
1. A $1.2B exit can still be a failure if the mission dies.
Elias calls Drift’s $1.2 billion exit his biggest failure, and the reasoning is specific: once he lost control, the company got sold on, the team was let go, and the product was eventually shut down. To him, success isn’t the headline number, it’s building something enduring that keeps delivering value to customers. The exit taught him that money changes nothing about who you are, and that letting down customers and team is the real failure worth learning from.
2. Constraint is the strategy: a $1B company with under 100 people.
Elias is building Agency toward $1B in revenue with fewer than 100 employees, and he treats the headcount cap as a feature, not a limit. He points to his upbringing under scarcity (keeping decades-old cars running because you have to) as proof that necessity forces creativity and efficiency, while abundance breeds bloat. With coding agents advancing fast, he suspects even 25 engineers may be more than enough, and the real constraint keeping the company lean is what protects clarity, speed, and alignment.
3. Win on the customer experience everyone else neglects.
Agency’s whole thesis is that companies overspend on acquisition and underinvest in caring for existing customers. The vision is AI agents that run your “customer organization,” proactively watching, understanding context, and intervening at the right moment so every customer feels like the only one. He frames the budget opportunity bluntly: for every $1 in software, companies spend $6 on labor, and much of that customer-facing labor is underserved, which is where the durable value sits.
4. “Agents don’t exist yet,” and the bar for a real one is high.
Despite building an agent company, Elias argues most things called agents today are just prompting, chatbots, or reminders. A real agent, by his definition, is one you’ve fully offloaded a workflow or role to: it runs continuously, self-improves, reports back, and succeeds at a high rate without you steering it (his example: a “renewal specialist” agent that learns your process and takes over renewals end to end). He believes we’re at 0.00001% of that future, and the biggest bottleneck isn’t the tech, it’s humans being reluctant to trust and change.
5. People and distribution are the real moats, built old-school.
Elias hires for values, attitude, and hunger over credentials, and his proudest legacy is the people who did their best work with him and went on to build major companies. He runs Agency with no titles and near-total customer proximity: 80 to 90% engineers, everyone talks to customers, everyone is a “forward deployed engineer.” On growth, he rejects the brute-force ad-and-influencer playbook in favor of word of mouth and reputation: solve a high-value problem so well that customers and investors refer you into their networks.
Follow Elias Torres
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eliast
- X (Twitter): https://x.com/eliast
Follow Sophie Buonassisi (Host)
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophiebuonassisi
- X (Twitter): https://x.com/sophiebuona
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GTM 197 Episode Transcript
00:00 – 00:03
Sophie Buonassisi: Elias, welcome to GTM now.
00:03 – 00:05
Elias Torres: Thank you for having me. This is great.
00:05 – 00:24
Sophie Buonassisi: Absolutely. And we’re going to get into AI and agency, your current company. But I’d be remiss if we also didn’t reflect upon some past chapters. And, you know, drift is one of those chapters you’ve called Drift the Exit. You’ve called the $1.2 billion exit one of your biggest failures, which I think to a lot of.
00:24 – 00:26
Elias Torres: People, the biggest failure.
00:26 – 00:37
Sophie Buonassisi: The biggest failure. Yes. But that sounds crazy to a lot of people. And so I’d love to hear, you know, the why behind that. Because there’s always many more layers to the headlines that people see.
00:37 – 01:01
Elias Torres: Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, this is something that every entrepreneur dreams, you know, to, to achieve, to accomplish, to get to it. And we really go on this incredible journeys. And then when we get to those things, the few that get there have another experience. Right. Yeah. And so to me it might have been different, maybe an IPO.
01:01 – 01:22
Elias Torres: Right. I would say different than, than than the exit that I had where you start realizing in life that that the exit or the money is not everything. Yeah. It’s like nothing changes. You’re the same person they after. And when you reflect on it, you know, it’s like, what was the goal? What was the dream. Right? And so we like to say that we want to build an enduring company.
01:23 – 02:00
Elias Torres: Yeah. We want to say that we change more people’s lives. We want the impact to be larger. But I think the thing that that affected me the most is you want to build something that that your customers are getting value from. And so to me, when, when I’m no longer in control of the company, when I can, when the company is not sustainable right on its own and it’s going to need funding, or when the private equity sells it to another company and the emergence to another company, and then that company lets go of your people, and then that company shuts down the product.
02:00 – 02:19
Elias Torres: Right? Right. And so it’s, it’s that’s where I think it’s the failure is coming from. And that we all make failures have failures. Right. So it’s not like it’s bad to be a failure to have a failure, but it is the biggest failure. Right. To let down the customers, to lay down the team. It was good. It was good for everybody in many ways.
02:19 – 02:25
Elias Torres: But there is a failure there, and I like to acknowledge it always and make sure that I learn from that.
02:25 – 02:37
Sophie Buonassisi: Yeah. Most important part. Are we learning from it? And after that, that exit, you know, you took a little bit of time off. Curious how you spent that time and then also why you jumped back into company building so quickly.
02:37 – 02:57
Elias Torres: I think that, you know, I was trying to do the math. I was I can’t even do the math right now, but it’s like 46 or something like that, right? Yeah. So I never I’m an immigrant. I’ve worked all my life nonstop. I’m not going to give you the like I worked at 13 type of thing, but I have worked nonstop.
02:57 – 03:23
Elias Torres: You know, and it was the first time, I think, one of one, one great advice someone gave me was she said, slow down, right. Take a deep breath. And I just learned to be no one, to be nobody. Right. Because I think we’re all chasing our egos, always making us chase like a title. Like I’m busy. Like, if you ask everybody, like, yeah, I’m busy back to back.
03:23 – 03:27
Sophie Buonassisi: Just force you to peel back all the layers that you’ve found in your identity, right?
03:27 – 03:45
Elias Torres: It’s like, what? What is my identity, right? What is? Or just be comfortable with, like, you know, I don’t do anything right. I don’t have I’m not CEO of this or I’m not a VP of that, or like, I’m not like, managing a fund or whatnot. Right. And it’s like everybody wants to say right away, what do you do?
03:45 – 04:12
Elias Torres: Who are you? And to be asked by people, who are you? What do you do? And I’m like, I’m doing nothing. You know, it was a humbling experience. And so I was told to try that, you know, and, and so I, I was saying that I had to detach from the company, bring closure to that. And then I have to spend time doing nothing and just accept that and then figure out what the next step was.
04:12 – 04:39
Elias Torres: Right. So that was kind of like the three step journey that I took after after that decision, after selling the company. And that’s when I took time off. My problem is I like to be with people and try and experience this. So we were just doing spending time and growing the relationships with people that I had that maybe I didn’t have enough time for them and got to do a lot of that and a lot of traveling and just go where people invite invited me and wanted to be part of that.
04:39 – 04:41
Elias Torres: As long as there’s people and experiences, I love it.
04:41 – 04:44
Sophie Buonassisi: Yeah. What was one of your favorite experiences from that time?
04:44 – 05:06
Elias Torres: We did the things, you know, I went to, you know, Japan, went to Thailand, Singapore, Brazil, you know, Europe. I made a lot of friends in Europe, in London that have been amazing relationships to me to this day. Right. So it’s it was all of it is a lot of fun I enjoy everything.
05:06 – 05:10
Sophie Buonassisi: Yeah. And what was the calling moment to actually go back to building.
05:10 – 05:30
Elias Torres: In that transition period? Right. I think I’m part of a of a fellowship and of people that are similar in age and have accomplished something, have had a moment like like I had. And then we call it as an inflection point. And that inflection point, you know, we’re all in that journey, right? And so trying to figure out what to do.
05:30 – 05:54
Elias Torres: And I think that what happened was there’s a book called From Strength to Strength and that everybody gets stuck. You know, some people just want to work like in some CEO job, and they don’t want to let go politicians, etc. and everybody’s like, I just I can’t quit because then what am I going to do? Right. And this book is talks about the strength of age and experience and how we need to transition into service, into mentorship, into coaching, into teaching.
05:54 – 06:23
Elias Torres: And and so that’s kind of where I was like, what is my transition? And, and I and I found that that two things, one, as a Latino in this country, with the with the network and the access that I had, it would be wasteful for me to not, you know, try again to create a company in a place for other people to, to be a role model one and then the other one is not everybody has a shot at I’ve been able to work at a great company.
06:23 – 06:43
Elias Torres: And so one of one of the biggest blessings, the thing that I’m most grateful is when when people come up to me. Yesterday I was at Sastre and one of my old sales people from from our company, from drift before I came to me. And he’s like, just want to let you know that the time I drift was one of the best times of my life, right?
06:43 – 07:03
Elias Torres: And so when people say that to me, they say that to a performer. They say that a hub spot. They say that I drift, they will say to the agency, is like, I had to create that place because there’s not many great places to be at with people. But this time I’m on that strength to strength book that I highly recommend of.
07:03 – 07:21
Elias Torres: How am I more of a mentor of a coach than than I am? When my prior companies where I was more like I wanted to do it, I wanted to take the credit. I wanted to take charge. Now I’m like, it’s the next generations, right? And so my job is just to facilitate the environment and create a place for them to, to do their best work of their lives.
07:21 – 07:30
Sophie Buonassisi: That’s incredible. Incredible. And that kind of brings us to where you are building now, which is agency. Would you mind sharing just a little bit around agency and self for anyone on familiar?
07:30 – 07:52
Elias Torres: Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest failure back to drift, right, was when you have thousands of customers, it’s like you you’re no longer can provide that. What I used to do at the beginning. Right. Right now my customers, they have my phone number, they can message me in slack. I’m showing up to the meetings. My time is really 100% for customers mostly, right?
07:52 – 08:12
Elias Torres: And and they want to. But then when you get, you know, many, many more and you get those and then you don’t see them. And so this is the big conundrum that we have in companies, in businesses we like to grow, get customers, but we’re not investing in caring for them. We do not. The budgets show that right.
08:12 – 08:32
Elias Torres: You spend this much in acquisition and you spend this little in in retention. And so our customers, we’re not being cared for. And that was part of the failure. Right. And so agency is to address that. How can we give the best experience possible to our customers. Like if in treat them like if they were the only one.
08:32 – 08:56
Elias Torres: So agencies is a provider of agents to help you create like a customer organization, right. Yeah. That it could be like the best organization that you ever wish you had. Right. And so how can we leverage AI to monitor, to care, to proactively to intervene at the right moment, at the right place? Right. For each of the customers in a very highly personalized way.
08:56 – 09:16
Elias Torres: Because even when we have humans with customers at that scale, nobody knows who you are. Nobody remembers, nobody reads the profile, nobody reads the information and so forth. So I want to change the way companies get built in the future. I think people are like they think they can vibe code, an app and a product, but who’s going to run that company?
09:16 – 09:32
Elias Torres: Who’s going to operate that company? And so we are the the complement to that go use Codex, go use, you know, clod whatever to to go build a product a company you think but agency is the one is going to help you grow the company and operate the company on a daily basis.
09:32 – 10:01
Sophie Buonassisi: Incredible. And you mentioned right now your role in a way is focused on enabling the space for people to do their best work. And, you know, you’re building agency and you brought great people along for the journey. People are operating an agency that you’ve known for years. And also on the investor side, Pat Grady back now, Pat Grady and Brian Halligan are behind each agency for any founders looking to really cultivate just great people to bring along.
10:01 – 10:09
Sophie Buonassisi: And let’s hone in on the investor side with Pat and Brian. What what advice would you give to any kind of founders looking to build those?
10:09 – 10:35
Elias Torres: I’ve been very fortunate, right? I mean, I think fundraising for me has never been that much of a struggle, right? In the sense I know the journey of entrepreneurs. Right? They’ll they’ll talk to 40. They’ll talk to 100 VCs and and never get funding. It’s really hard. I’ve been fortunate. I work with David Cancel before and he had a he had a long standing relationship with CRV with SR.
10:35 – 10:51
Elias Torres: So he’s our pad. Brian, you know there’s a there’s my uncle Brian and I are like close in age. I’m older than Pat. Either is older than me. But it’s like they Pat is the young one. Just make sure here is gets on the record. Yeah, yeah I got you know.
10:51 – 10:52
Sophie Buonassisi: You got the leaderboard.
10:52 – 11:17
Elias Torres: Yeah I get the we just make sure. And the thing is that I’ve been very fortunate. Right. Because these are people that knew that David. Pat new Brian at HubSpot. And that’s how we got to know Pat. It’s about relationships, right? And it’s about getting to know these people and the work that they do for us. For me, I’ve been fortunate because they’ve been there for me before they even invest it.
11:17 – 11:39
Elias Torres: Right. And so those are very special kind of people I always like to test. I have a lot of investors approach me and they’re like, and I’m tough. Like, because I’m just not used. I’m used to working with great investors that always been there for me. And they were long term thinking. And they, they, they made me feel like they care about me.
11:39 – 11:59
Elias Torres: And then when the time was to come to invest, why would I say no to them? And so that’s it’s different. But I know that that’s not the same for everybody. But what I do with new, new investors that want to approach me always say, don’t just give me your thesis and like your value and your deck and like, I’m like like I don’t I don’t I don’t want to hear that.
11:59 – 12:23
Elias Torres: And I always say to people, show up consistently and do the work. You know, you say you’re going to introduce me to customers when you invest. Well, introduced me to customers now, right? And so I just had an old friend of mine that he had invested in one of the rounds in one of my companies, and one of my customers is using us, and he invested in that company.
12:23 – 12:41
Elias Torres: So he he caught wind of that, that they’re really loving the product. And he’s like calls me up. He’s like, can I come? I’m in Boston. I want you to deploy agency into 50 of my portfolio companies. Amazing. And that was amazing. But I hadn’t seen him. But that to me is like you. He’s not coming to say, let’s talk.
12:41 – 13:16
Elias Torres: Are you fundraising? He’s like, I want to deploy you in 50% and 50 of my company. So if you do that and then you want to say, get priority into investing, that’s what I do. So I think that and because I’ve gone through many different events, you know, selling companies, leaving companies and, and so forth, I’ve been with this investors at those like Crucible moments, right where you get to see where they stand when they when they people say that they’re like founder friendly, right, or founder first.
13:16 – 13:40
Elias Torres: And, you know, I’ve been with Izzard to this situation multiple times. You know, we sold to HubSpot with Pat when we when we sold to Vista and personal moments and and that’s really the moment that really matters are busy. They don’t they’re not going to be there. They’re not going to build the company with you, but is at those moments right where you need them.
13:40 – 14:01
Elias Torres: Do they show up and what side do they take? And they can you see that they put the firm second and they put you first. And I’ve been extremely lucky, right. So it’s like would say that practically you I don’t think anybody does founders if you’re about to get a check you don’t. You just get the term sheet and you sign it.
14:01 – 14:11
Elias Torres: Instead. You should be doing some reference checking. You should be calling your like companies that fail that those that those investors have been on the board.
14:11 – 14:12
Sophie Buonassisi: That’s great advice.
14:12 – 14:35
Elias Torres: Go call them. But nobody does. Right. It’s just like, I just want the money. I just want the money. I just don’t want the money. But when the when the stories go south, then you wonder why. Right. Yeah. And there are, there are investors that I don’t invest. I don’t even take calls with them. Right. Because I’ve seen what they’ve done, as you know, competitors to me in the past, how they approach, how they behave, how they act.
14:35 – 14:47
Elias Torres: And so like I have my own. References. And so but people yet take money from them and I’m just like, wow, this is not people. The character that I would work with.
14:47 – 15:05
Sophie Buonassisi: Yeah, it sounds like if you’re kind of distill that advice and almost sounds like look for people that lead with value. Yeah, it’s a long it’s a long journey, as you know, from drift and other experiences to and you mentioned David cancel you and David cancel built together across multiple companies for over 20 years. What’s it like now.
15:06 – 15:09
Sophie Buonassisi: Not building together.
15:09 – 15:30
Elias Torres: Is yeah it’s a little nostalgic. I mean we we would spend we have spent so much time working together, you know, like we we were so in sync, like we would start driving together out of each other’s houses. And we had long drive to the office, and then we’d just be on the phone the whole time. And then if we lived at the same time, the offices and we can talk on the way back.
15:30 – 15:44
Elias Torres: And that was our like, sync time. And I don’t have that anymore. But I think is it’s the journey, right? I think we’re good. We’re good friends. I’m going to see him in my birthday next, next month. I was just with him.
15:44 – 15:45
Sophie Buonassisi: Big milestone.
15:45 – 15:46
Elias Torres: Yeah. Big milestone.
15:46 – 15:47
Sophie Buonassisi: What are you doing to celebrate?
15:48 – 16:14
Elias Torres: I’m going to Nicaragua, so I’m going back home. So it’s it’s it’s chapter 50. The tagline is the hashtag is homecoming. Okay? I hadn’t been there in 30 plus years. And and so get to share that with him and many other friends. Some of my best friends coming beautiful. And I think with David is David was always I was always number two.
16:14 – 16:36
Elias Torres: One time we moved into one of our offices and the the security person. It was a Sunday and we were moving stuff in and she sees me and she was like, hey, are you at number two? And I was like, thank you. She just met me. And so working with David was incredible. He was a mentor. He’s a mentor to this day, and he taught me so much.
16:36 – 16:58
Elias Torres: But I think at some point, you know, after, like I said, 15 or 20 years, you want to now you need to exercise what I’ve learned. Yeah. And back to that. Paying it forward back to that. Like switching of the role. You know I’m working my co-founder is Luke. He I hired him when he was a sophomore. He was like 20, 21, 22 years old at Northeastern at Drift.
16:58 – 17:20
Elias Torres: He’s now 30. We worked together all this time, but now he’s a CTO. I was a CTO and I’m taking David’s role, and I have the carrying out the weight and the responsibility of the company and the stress that that he used to carry. Yeah. You know, alone most of the time. And I get to mentor and coach Luke, and Luke is way better than me technically and as a person and everything.
17:20 – 17:32
Elias Torres: And and so he’s a joy to to to see what he does differently. And when I see him making the same mistakes that I, that I made, I’m like David said, you know, this is what David would say.
17:32 – 17:35
Sophie Buonassisi: To me. You down the wisdom chain. Yeah.
17:35 – 17:50
Elias Torres: The other day I was with David and we sent him like a, like a, like a video recording to, to Luke because the mistakes that Luke make, I made it to. So it’s great to be able to do it. I’m more graceful than David. David was.
17:51 – 17:56
Sophie Buonassisi: I have actually seen you guys on stage saying we never get on stage together. Yeah.
17:56 – 18:03
Elias Torres: I’m saying like I’m nicer. I think, you know, David would just beat me up hard, but I love it. I like.
18:03 – 18:04
Sophie Buonassisi: I like tough love.
18:04 – 18:06
Elias Torres: I like, love like I like it rough.
18:06 – 18:22
Sophie Buonassisi: And now you’re building agency with Luke. You’ve said that you want to build to over $1 billion, less than 100 employees, which I know to a lot of people sounds crazy. Tell us about that. Tell us about that bold claim.
18:22 – 18:49
Elias Torres: Well, I mean, I think that if you don’t if you like, constraint is is the mother of invention or something like that. In necessity, there’s a saying, right? It’s like I grew up in a communist regime when I was young and not a lot around. I don’t know if you know about Cuba still struggles. Right. And with this and and Cuba still all the cars are like 60, 70 years old and they just keep them running.
18:49 – 19:00
Elias Torres: They work because they found ways to like, make it work here in the United States. Like if a car that is three years old stops working, it’s easier to go buy a new one. You know, people.
19:00 – 19:02
Sophie Buonassisi: Don’t hit 100 clicks and people.
19:02 – 19:26
Elias Torres: It’s so so that doesn’t teach us to be creative, innovative or efficient. And I think that you’re starting to see that now. And companies think I mean, first of all, you see companies right now with 2 or 300 people in 4 or 500 million in revenue. Right? So what I said a couple of years ago that sounded crazy is no longer sounding crazy.
19:26 – 19:46
Elias Torres: Right? So I think it’s more cheaper now. I think that one of the things that I’m doing is just being patient. I think there’s a lot of hype about what can be done, what AI does for you and organization, but I don’t think it has fully played out. And, you know, we’re around 25, maybe 30 people by this summer.
19:46 – 20:13
Elias Torres: And we are, I would say like at a good local maximum right now in terms of organization and communication and clarity and alignment and vision, we’re like really working through because the more people you have, the more complex it is and the more inefficient you become. So you got large companies going from like 10,000 to 5000, but the bloat in there is just absolutely horrible.
20:13 – 20:42
Elias Torres: Right. And anybody tells me that they’re more efficient. I mean, you see what Elon did with X, right. Yeah. People didn’t think it was going to be possible. And it’s still up and running right. I’m sure it was not easy. But we have to follow that same principle. Right. And so I think that what we’ve seen just in the past year in coding agents alone, right, there’s been a huge, huge progress that makes me step back and say, maybe 25 engineers is like more than you’ll ever need.
20:42 – 20:57
Elias Torres: Maybe, maybe too much. Right? And so we definitely are along that trajectory. I’ve seen that. I think it has to be within reach. But the hardest thing is finding the right business model. Right. That is going to scale and to go to market motion to support that.
20:57 – 21:05
Sophie Buonassisi: But what do you think that is like if you think about as you build out agency, what is the go to market motion that supports that?
21:05 – 21:18
Elias Torres: I think that there’s different. Right? I think those those hyperscalers companies are companies like let’s say Vive coding platforms or something like that. Right. That they are.
21:18 – 21:50
Elias Torres: Self-serve. Right. And they’re consuming tokens and great revenue. We don’t know about the cost margins and that. Right. But, you know, we got to keep thinking about self-sustainable and endurance. But I think that so those are like it seems much easier. But you still have to decide to go that route. I’m more like on a mission, right? I you know, one of the things that is becoming clearer to everybody, you have a dollar in in software budgets and then you have $6 in labor, right?
21:50 – 22:22
Elias Torres: So companies, you know, I had like let’s say 200 people in the organization adrift to support the customer. There’s companies that have 200, 400. And then there’s still only tapping and touching, maybe like 4 or 5% of their customer base. And so there are larger budgets that you see companies like Sierra tapping into. Right. Yeah. And then of saying like, we will come and help you become more efficient, talk to more customers, serve more customers, retain more customers.
22:22 – 22:39
Elias Torres: And then the budgets that are available in that space are much larger, right. And so if you have a dedicated team to be able to support a product that will give that kind of return on investment in a company, the revenue from that could be substantial enough right to support that. And the question is, do we need PhDs?
22:39 – 22:50
Elias Torres: Do we not need PhDs? But it’s still an enterprise sell, right? So there’s still going to be a motion where you have to build a relationship. You have to gain the trust. An AI is not going to be selling $1 million deal.
22:50 – 22:51
Sophie Buonassisi: No, no.
22:51 – 23:16
Elias Torres: Not some people say, like Brian, I think we were at some event with Brian Halligan and he’s like, oh, I forget. Or actually, Jack said this Jack Dorsey was talking to to Sequoia portfolio companies and he’s like, sales is the last role that we will eliminate because people want to buy it from a human. And, you know, when when we started agency was Brian’s idea, actually, he was like, would you starting the sale side?
23:16 – 23:37
Elias Torres: And I said, no, I want to start in the customer side. Yeah. And so some days I struggled with that, you know, because I feel like CEOs care less about customers. They care more about prospects. And I’m like, am I in the right spot? But then when I hear, you know, Jack saying sales is the last role that that goes it makes me wonder, yeah, I’m on the right place, right?
23:37 – 23:56
Elias Torres: In the sense of we’re not going to be able to automate that entirely and just building a copilot. It’s not going to be as financially successful. But if I can auto pilot and build the agents to manage customers, eventually there there’ll be a flip and people will understand that the investment there is better. So I’m post sales and that’s where I want to when that’s my mission.
23:56 – 23:56
Elias Torres: Right?
23:56 – 24:04
Sophie Buonassisi: Yeah. And what does that look like for somebody. Let’s say I’m a customer. What does that interaction look like? What changes from what I’m used to?
24:04 – 24:32
Elias Torres: Well, it depends right. As I think of a vendor, right, that we’re spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, let’s say, right a month, and then we’re like, we have a slack channel, we have an account manager or something, you know, and they’re like a sudden you get a new message and it says, hey, I’m now, you know, Mikey, I’m your new am, right?
24:32 – 24:54
Elias Torres: And it’s like, here’s my calendar. Let’s schedule a time to me and let me see what you need. And I’m just like, what? What on earth is like? I do not want to go into this meeting. And what what is it that I would have wanted, right? I would have wanted somebody to show up and say, I’m Mikey.
24:54 – 25:14
Elias Torres: Here are the things that I see you have asked in the past. This are your workloads. This is what you’re using. This is the features. This is the access that you needed when to increase x, y, c and I know you. I will continue working on those for you. I have all the context that will follow up with you.
25:14 – 25:31
Elias Torres: And if you want any time to catch up with me like 15 minutes, if you have any questions, I’m here available for you. Right? Right. That would have been a better transition. Right. And then then the other day we call in, we had to do something and they said, no, you have to submit a form online. You can’t just I’m in slack with them.
25:31 – 25:49
Elias Torres: They just responded. It’s like, no, you have to submit a form somewhere else. And I’m like, given what I’m paying, like, can you just like fill out the form for me? Yeah, I go try to fill out the form. The form is broken and I’m like, it doesn’t work. It’s like, okay, I’ll do it for you. It’s like, why go through that?
25:49 – 26:10
Elias Torres: So it doesn’t make sense of an experience when you’re supposed to have this white glove VIP. And that’s really how how we treat their customers. And the other side is the plug, you know, so you’re, you’re you’re there and and you’re trying to use this product and there’s no 800 number. There’s no Chad. There’s nothing that you can call because they can’t staff that.
26:10 – 26:37
Elias Torres: Right. And then you’re like, okay, you’re going to get maybe a few sequence emails when you first start, but they’re not personalized and they have nothing to, you know, for you. And just the same static email that everybody gets and then you never hear from them again. Right. And so what if when you’re trying to use the product, you get a message, you get a chatbot that explains to you and you’re stuck and is not working.
26:37 – 26:58
Elias Torres: And it would explain it to you. What if you get an offer? What if you get a personalized message about this is your business, this is how you’re using your product, and you could benefit if you use something else. Like that’s the opportunity. But I think you’ll ask the right question. Right one is a capability. Can we automate the things that humans do?
26:58 – 27:25
Elias Torres: But the most important question is what is the experience that the customer wants, right? Not everybody wants an email. Not everybody wants a phone call. Right? Right. Or to many or not. Or some people want more. Right. And so but that’s what I believe this this mission is like never ending. How to best understand every single one of your customers in a cost efficient way that makes your business and durable, right?
27:25 – 27:36
Sophie Buonassisi: Incredible. Were you really turned, I mean, what you call the biggest failure into, you know, your biggest, you know, future legacy that you’re creating and building, which is very cool.
27:36 – 27:38
Elias Torres: And like the legacy is the mission, right?
27:39 – 27:40
Sophie Buonassisi: It’s the mission.
27:40 – 27:40
Elias Torres: Yeah.
27:40 – 27:42
Sophie Buonassisi: Yeah, yeah, a mission.
27:42 – 27:56
Elias Torres: Who cares about legacy? Like, I don’t know, we we’ll be forgotten and like ten years. I’m closer to the United States. Like ten, 20 years. The homecoming. Very few people will remember us.
27:56 – 28:17
Sophie Buonassisi: Well, what changes for people as they think about restructuring the organization? Because a lot of people now are trying to achieve larger revenue milestones with fewer headcount and prioritizing the customer accordingly. What management principles need to change? How are people supposed to restructure their organization around that too?
28:17 – 28:43
Elias Torres: Yeah, I mean, I think our organization, they’re smarter, big time CEOs than bigger, bigger time CEOs than me. And I’m a first time CEOs. I’m a noob. I’m an amateur. As a CEO, I would say that I’m a machine gear for action. Right? Okay. I’m I’m action packed. Right to me is about momentum, making decisions quickly, taking action.
28:43 – 28:57
Elias Torres: And I do it all around the customer. So I’m not really a I’m very familiar with, you know, with structures and companies and so forth. But I’m I’m not I’m anti them. I just didn’t make any sense to me is.
28:57 – 28:59
Sophie Buonassisi: That’s the answer.
28:59 – 29:30
Elias Torres: I’m just telling you what I naturally do. I’m good at the smaller company part of it. Right. Yeah. When we had 600 people I just to me all that was just bullshit, you know, and and so here at agency, the majority of our engineers, it’s like 80, 90% of the company is engineers. And everybody serves the customer. So like, everybody responds to the customers, everybody meets with the customer.
29:30 – 29:58
Elias Torres: Everybody fixes the problem directly. There is no we’re using agency ourselves to make sure that the customers don’t don’t fall behind. So agency will tell us what customer has not been responded to. What are we owing to a customer? What do we need? And he will manage and tell us what to do, right? And so if you build that part of the code, the AI knows what the Cole has, the code, who built it, who owns it, who’s been supporting things like that in the past.
29:58 – 30:25
Elias Torres: And we’ll add them in slack and get them to answer the question. So we’re really kind of self-organized, like, you know, one of my biggest things is high agency people, right? I just hate when people don’t take action. Yeah. When people don’t have an initiative to solve a problem on their own or they’re like afraid. And, you know, so that’s when I said, I want to create an environment where people do their best work is because they act like like I would I just I see a problem, I go solve it.
30:25 – 30:50
Elias Torres: Right. And so the team is all around that people, all the engineers are involved with security, all the engineers are involved with customers, all the engineers are involved with costs, the sales. We have a small sales organization. These are the best sellers I ever work with. Right. Because they’re customer focused. They help onboard the customers that they sold their prospect.
30:50 – 31:15
Elias Torres: They know them, they help them along, and they’re available to respond. Support and development and onboarding and training and enablement. Right. Because we want to build organizations that we’re at their core of their systems when it comes to managing customers. So it’s like everybody is involved with everything. And we don’t we don’t have titles. I know that that’s the new hard thing to say, but it’s like we don’t because it’s like, what is it?
31:15 – 31:17
Elias Torres: You know, we’re just supporting the customer.
31:17 – 31:19
Sophie Buonassisi: Do you think you’ll introduce titles at any point?
31:19 – 31:48
Elias Torres: I hope not, that’s part of the constraint of the 100. You know, I think that, you know, when drift was 100, it was life was much simpler. And then after that I remember having to have meetings about levels and about like titles and reporting. And I had like, oh, we had so many product managers and we’re like. And then I had like my VP of products, like, we need to have levels because their director that grew PM and this and that and I’m like, I don’t care about this stuff.
31:48 – 32:14
Elias Torres: Like I just care about people that actually ship product. Right. And help. And so with the collapse and we don’t have designers, we do not have product managers, just like a few of us. You know, Luke, me others were just like taking a little bit of that, sharing the load on product management. But everybody has to fight for getting the clarity and alignment of what we’re doing for the customer.
32:14 – 32:32
Elias Torres: So we I wouldn’t say we have oh, here’s the framework and here’s I’m going to put my article in acts of of how to do this. I’m just telling you how we’re doing it right now. And it’s very, very fluid. Everybody hands on. Nobody can say that’s not my job. I mean.
32:32 – 32:33
Sophie Buonassisi: If you look at.
32:33 – 32:56
Sophie Buonassisi: The recent companies that have just like gone on to to have tremendous growth, like look or in other companies, like the common thread between them is the feedback loop between customers and like proximity to the customers, like a big key part of their journeys. So it’ll be interesting to see how people structure and change just as you are to be closer to the customer.
32:56 – 33:16
Elias Torres: Yeah, I mean, I think the some of these companies, what they’ve done that is tremendous is distribution. Yes, I think the distribution is key. And that’s something that I’m I’m trying to pay close attention because that’s the thing. The hardest part like to get the attention or the removing the friction and the adoption for people to do it.
33:16 – 33:42
Elias Torres: So I don’t have to create necessarily a huge organization with go to market to be like, you know, I the, the, the Valley is pushing so hard right now, but that’s just going to create a huge organizational bloat. And that’s something that I’m, you know, wrestling with, right? If we start selling higher contracts and we just say here’s an FD, here’s an FD and FTE for you and PhD for you.
33:42 – 33:59
Elias Torres: Everybody gets an FD that’s going to create a much more complex organization. Yes. And I don’t believe the PhDs are happy. You know, doing this job. What I hear is the complaints, if you’ve been assigned an FD for two years at this company, what’s your progress going to be like? Yeah, you’re going to get just like a better company next time.
33:59 – 34:21
Elias Torres: Like what is. And so I don’t think that that creates the type of organization in people that I want. And there I said it, you know, and I don’t want to have to create like levels of PhDs and manager of PhDs and empower building. Right? Our team, everybody supports all the customers. So my company, you don’t get one FTE, you get all of us.
34:21 – 34:45
Elias Torres: We all are forward deployed engineers I love that. And so I’m trying to fight that and trying to build a product and trying to get a distribution flywheel that will scale. But it’s you know, I don’t have 400 million revenue. Right. So, right. But I’m a I’m a missionary right now. I want to solve this customer problem because I don’t want to just sell a tool that we charge lots of money, spend a lot of tokens.
34:45 – 34:49
Elias Torres: I want to send something that changes the way that business manages their customers, and the customers love it.
34:50 – 35:07
Sophie Buonassisi: That is an incredible mission. Yeah. And you mentioned one of the hardest parts now is building distribution. How do you think companies will successfully build distribution, whether it’s how you’re thinking about building distribution at agency or just in this AI era, how can people build distribution better?
35:07 – 35:29
Elias Torres: I think that there’s brute force in it. Right? I just I just think that, you know, you can raise a lot of money, you know, pay a lot of ads everywhere, you know, in the Valley, you know, have planes, fly over conferences, have marching bands, you know, you can do a lot of stuff. You can hire fancy actors and, and create cool videos and spend a lot of money on influencers.
35:29 – 35:50
Elias Torres: So there’s that, those set of tactics, which, by the way, I part of it is, is, is my my weakness, right? I’m a religion I like. I want to make a customer happy. Yeah. And so I’m more old fashioned and saying like, what I see is like, if I win a customer, which is I’m learning, right? We’re building the product that does it.
35:50 – 36:10
Elias Torres: And then that customer tells the investor and that investor says, I have 50 companies, right? I’m still a more of a word of mouth and a reputation. And that’s what I’m I’m teaching the team to earn. But I want to solve something that is of high value. You know, you don’t want to build another vitamin. You know, something that I’ve coded something once and then I’m going to I don’t need it again.
36:10 – 36:34
Elias Torres: Or like I go switch to the next thing that gives me free credits. I want something to be able to go, like I want to go to that company. I want to go to agency because they solved it for them and for this customer, for this other company. I want them to solve it for me. And and I want to be a partner to them and then allows me to, you know, build larger relationships, larger value, larger benefit.
36:34 – 36:37
Elias Torres: So I’m I’m still doing it old school, right?
36:37 – 36:59
Sophie Buonassisi: Yeah, I love it I love it. And, you know, one of the things of how you’re building is the people, everybody’s super involved with the customer. And if you look at kind of your track record of working with great people like we’ve talked about, it is fantastic. You know, Andrew went on to build Clavijo, now a public company, and Chris built HubSpot CRM and Whitney is CTO.
36:59 – 37:09
Sophie Buonassisi: Like, you’ve got just this, this beautiful kind of orbit of people that you’ve worked with. How do you think about hiring?
37:09 – 37:38
Elias Torres: I think that I would say that that’s the greatest pleasure of, of my career from a legacy perspective, is really getting that feedback that these people really that was their best time so far career wise. This guy is in Australia, he says. And by the way, I’m Mary. I have my first kid. I think that that’s my my personal, you know, selfish satisfaction to know that I made an impact in someone’s life.
37:38 – 38:04
Elias Torres: Right? I would say role model ship is really the key. Brian Halligan is a role model to me. You know, I went to work with him. I helped him with David to take up spot public, but seeing him make a unit build a unicorn, right is what inspired me to be like, oh, I can do that too. Like, it doesn’t look, that was our heart.
38:04 – 38:23
Elias Torres: So he demystifies, right? Because I think a lot of people, we block our minds to be like, can we do something right? And yeah. And so it’s like, so to me, being people that have accomplished great things is very inspiring. And the closer you work to them, the more you realize it’s possible. And they’re just like normal. It’s just a normal human being.
38:23 – 38:24
Elias Torres: You know, I just I.
38:24 – 38:25
Sophie Buonassisi: Got 24 hours.
38:25 – 38:47
Elias Torres: Yeah. And we’re not that different. We had two legs, two arms, you know, most of us. And so we’re like, so it’s okay. Right. And so we so Brian inspired me to go do that. You know to to do that with drift performed well. Andrew was inspired by what he saw from us and and went and says, I’m going to build it.
38:47 – 39:08
Elias Torres: I’m going to make it better. Right? And he did. Right. And so he’s to this day, we have such a great relationship. I was just having drinks with him yesterday. That’s awesome. We got to see each other in the West Coast and sometimes don’t have time in the East Coast. And so I think that I just believe everybody has so much potential.
39:08 – 39:33
Elias Torres: But what I do is I, I don’t look for credentials. People say that, but I don’t. If you look at if you look at the roster of the people that I know, there are almost no credentials. You know, the highest credential probably might be like northeastern, you know, but northeastern attracts people that are humble. They have a whole different work ethic and discipline.
39:33 – 40:11
Elias Torres: Their their values, you know, their attitude, their hunger is different than than someone that is just trying to impress me or with credentials. How many rung up the ladders or what clubs they grew up in and blah blah blah. Who’s that network? Who do they know? I give two shits about all that stuff, you know? And so the all the people, I mean, you mentioned some of them, but the amount of people that that are still making a huge impact at HubSpot, at the people that I hired and they, like, I run into people like, oh, I was in Albany and I was working for the government of New York and as an engineer in
40:11 – 40:34
Elias Torres: some warehouse, and now they’re running engineering at HubSpot, you know, and so I think that I see do I see it or everybody has this potential, but it’s the environment that you create that inspires them to go on and do great things. So if you if you combine the values and the attitude with the environment, that’s where you have great success for people come out of that, right?
40:34 – 40:52
Elias Torres: And so I’ve been fortunate to being, you know, having Brian and David and others. Right. And the investors in Pat that allow me create this environments that I can attract people, that I can see great values, that they going to go into amazing things. Right. The same as the same as for Luke, you know.
40:53 – 41:20
Sophie Buonassisi: Yes. Very cool. You see that pattern across all different areas of your life. So that’s very beautiful. And I want to ask you a couple of last questions here. Agents. Hard pinot, hard pivot. But you know, you talked about building an enduring company. And there’s a lot of companies and agents coming up. What does your take on agents specifically as we just see the word everywhere.
41:20 – 42:03
Elias Torres: I have positives and negatives or maybe status, I don’t know. I think agents are the as an engineer, right. Like when I first graduated in, you know, a long time ago, you know, at the early days of the internet, writing a program that automated something like, I remember being like first college, first job out of college. And, and I always would be like, I don’t know, I always watch people that were not using computers or would and or like, look, I copy from this spreadsheet into this email and I hit, you know, how many jobs are still like that, right?
42:03 – 42:18
Elias Torres: We just we’re working with a large manufacturing company that people receive emails, they go to their own website, they type in the things from the email and then they hit a button. They download the PDF and they attach it into the email and they send it.
42:18 – 42:19
Sophie Buonassisi: Oh my.
42:19 – 42:39
Elias Torres: God, it’s like 200 people that do this, right? Yeah. And so this is to this day. So I saw that 30 years ago 40 I don’t know. And it’s like and I would be like, I can write a program that does that. Right. And so that was like to me like the most powerful thing in the world that I could write a program that did grab that value from here, find it with regular expressions.
42:39 – 43:04
Elias Torres: Agents is the ultimate materialization of programing, right? It’s now we have an agent that can write code, that can read the inputs, that can write itself, and that can run itself to accomplish the task. And so it’s extremely fascinating, right, of what the potential that we have in the world. Yet we’re still such in such a sad state of the world when it comes to agents.
43:04 – 43:23
Elias Torres: For as much as we talk about agents, to me, agents don’t really even exist yet. You know? I mean, there’s coding agents. I know everybody’s going to jump at this, but agents that really are managing our lives. It’s like are not there yet. Maybe the biggest example is open claw. You know, in that I would say is going far.
43:23 – 43:41
Elias Torres: Like there’s a lot of people that I never expected said that they’re running an open club, but it’s still just basically a little reminder, you know, stories, reminders. And, you know, I love how people are like, so in love with their agents. And they’re like, look, it does this. You know, I was talking to a founder and they’re like, oh, it’s my product manager.
43:41 – 44:10
Elias Torres: It manages all my product management. And I’m like, show me this agent. And you know which, we’re still prompting and asking questions. That’s not an agent, right? To me, an agent is when you have offloaded all your worries for that workflow, for that role at a company, and you can do it continually at a high rate of success with self-improvement, optimization, right, and reporting and ability for me to interact with it.
44:10 – 44:38
Elias Torres: Right. And so what I want, right, is for a company to say, I hire my renewal specialist from agency. And, you know, the renewal specialist comes in into your company, watches how you had done the renewal process with your existing customers, can read your wiki, can read the emails, can read the contracts in Salesforce, gets the understanding of the process and says, okay, I’ll start taking on all the new renewals.
44:38 – 45:10
Elias Torres: Does it? And it’s improving, its rated report said. It says, look, I’m renewing at this percentage and what else do you need right. And here’s the feedback. This is where the pushback this is where we need to change pricing. That’s an age. Yeah that’s the future right. And so how do we create these agents that humans trust it, that are delivering the right experience to our customer and that they are efficient and to and not too costly to run is the future that we’re headed.
45:10 – 45:34
Elias Torres: But I think we’re nowhere near that, right? I mean, it could accelerate, but I mean, it’s going to for every business to have agents that are running your customer organization like that in the world. We’re far. We’re just getting started. I mean, I .00001 of businesses might be doing something near like that. And so that’s what’s really excited about agency, right.
45:34 – 45:52
Elias Torres: And the vision, it’s like a lot of people get caught up on like this company is this AGI is coming and so forth. And like humans we’re the biggest bottleneck to adoption of AI. But technically speaking, we no one has a clue how to build that yet.
45:52 – 45:56
Sophie Buonassisi: And humans are the biggest bottleneck. How do we get out of the way?
45:56 – 46:25
Elias Torres: I think that we need to as businesses, I’m trying to find the areas where I think the humans are very reluctant to change because we’re afraid of our jobs, and so we don’t want to change and whenever. So if the way I kind of present it sometimes is like as a human, let’s say that you can only do ten things for each customer and that’s your job, because physically you’re not you’re not capable that we don’t we 24 hours.
46:25 – 46:49
Elias Torres: Right. Yeah. And so but what if we wanted to do another 90 things that we just never had a chance to do for the customer? So I’m positioning that to, to our customers and say like, what are the other 90 things that you wish you could do that you cannot do and work on those so we don’t have to clash and let and let those, those humans continue doing what they’re doing.
46:49 – 47:11
Elias Torres: That’s one approach, right? It’s the other approach that we talk about. But this is where the bottleneck comes in, is we’re like, why don’t we tell the human like, don’t do this, nine things because they’re all administrative. Yeah. And like, you know, just mind numbing. And you get to do another nine things with a customer, you know, that that would spend more time and be more strategic.
47:11 – 47:32
Elias Torres: And you can learn more. And it could be more rewarding for yourself and your career. But there’s still a lot of hesitation there, right? And there’s a lot of lack of trust up and down the hierarchy in the company to trying something with the customer. People are afraid like then and so like, I like to attract and hire people that are not afraid.
47:32 – 47:51
Sophie Buonassisi: And that’s why you are now running your own organization where you don’t have to be in an organization where there is fear. You can you can operate as you wish. What are some of the administrative things that you personally have kind of offloaded to AI or empowered AI to run that other people are still a little bit scared to do?
47:51 – 48:15
Elias Torres: Like I said, agents don’t exist. You know, I think that how we offloaded, I think to us. I’m still leveraging, to be fair, a lot of humans, right. The the organizations my my life is all revolves around customer. And so I administrative I do very little. I have you know, I have people that help me on the finances.
48:15 – 48:38
Elias Torres: That’s one of the benefits of exits, you know, and and some of the calendar and in the travel. And I’m just highly disorganized. So definitely don’t have to people organize a lot for me. And I do it in the lowest friction possible. But really my biggest leverage is definitely agency, right? Like we don’t even have a CRM like agency.
48:38 – 49:07
Elias Torres: Is our entire system of record for the company, right? All the communications, all the tasks, all the project, all the community, all the all the back and forth and managing the processes is all done in agency. And so it’s is our biggest leverage from an agent tech fashion of how we run the company. And like everybody in the company that has worked before our other companies says, how could we possibly work out work without agency anymore?
49:07 – 49:29
Elias Torres: And so I think that that’s the important thing. Like anything that has to do with customer, what do I need to do? Who we’re missing what they’re saying. We just use our own system to do that. And it’s fascinating. And all the other stuff I think is still very gimmicky. And then obviously coding coding agents are incredible. You know, we build our own background agent like just like ramp code inspect.
49:29 – 49:58
Elias Torres: Ours is called intern and the majority of the code is being written on the cloud as we are, as we hear feedback from customers, we just send the intern to go build it and the code is ready. Integrations could be done in like a day. It’s incredible what the coding is. And so now that’s why the whole team can be like a forward deployed engineering team, because we can just spend more time with the customers as a whole.
49:58 – 50:07
Sophie Buonassisi: What an exciting time to have come up and seen engineering through so many different capacities and scopes. And now to have this, this intern being able to do that. Super cool.
50:07 – 50:24
Elias Torres: My mentors were like writing the C language, you know, before it’s like I wasn’t quite in that group. They’re like older I and but yes, I was at the early stages of the internet and programing and now this is it’s so, so much fun.
50:24 – 50:34
Sophie Buonassisi: Well, I’m so excited for you in agency to continue building. Elias, thank you for joining. Where can people find you if they want to follow along with agency yourself?
50:34 – 50:52
Elias Torres: I would say I’m more of a of a LinkedIn guy, you know, I guess that’s where I have more of my audience. I’m on X but go to agency that ANC, you know that and get in touch with us. I mean, I think we’d love to if you bring your customer problems to us, we would love to talk.
50:52 – 50:54
Sophie Buonassisi: Beautiful. Elise. Thank you.
50:54 – 50:55
Elias Torres: Thank you for having me.
